Hidden Truth/Hidden Truth.iso/data/newspostings/1401-1500/1416

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranet.ufo,alt.alien.research,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Mr. FunGus -- Factually impoverished
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 00:48:34 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
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Message-ID: <4q7ims$[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Mark O'Leary) wrote:

>In article <4q4cse$[e-mail]>,
> <[e-mail]> wrote:

>[snip]

>>>Pretty central to them, as I recall, was the fact that transporting dry ice
>>>in an aircraft requires special handling instructions. Even if they lied on
>>>the transport documents as to what was stored *in* the ice, they'd have to
>>>tell the plane crew that in an unpressurised plane their effective ceiling
>>>would be lowered due to CO2 buildup from the cargo, (or that in a pressurised
>>>plane they'd have even worse problems!). There are routine mechanisms for
>>>notifying these sort of special handling instructions, and these warnings
>>>are handed on to the unloading and storage crew at the other end. Any sign
>>>of these documents?
>>
>>We do know of one flight from Roswell to Fort Worth on July 9, 1947 from two of
>>the crew members (Sgt. Robert Slusher and "Tim") who independently gave
>>identical stories.

>The reason to ask for documentation was that such stories are questionable.
>However, onwards...

>>  The B-29 carried a large crate under heavy armed guard in one of the bomb
>>bays.  The flight was also very unusual in that it flew at only 4000-5000
>>feet instead of the normal 25,000 feet. "Tim" still had his old flight log
>>showing the date and time of the flight, but neither man knew what was in
>>the crate.

>A low altitude flight might be consistent with an aircraft that had to be
>kept 'ventilated' to prevent CO2 buildup from dry ice. Does 'Tim' record if
>he was *instructed* to fly low, and if so, did he ask why? Do weather
>records show any mundane reasons why he might've kept to a low ceiling, for
>instance?

The plane was a B-29.  'Tim' was involved with the preflight checks of the plane
and observed the loading of the wooden crate from a distance (he wasn't allowed
to get close).  He noted that four armed MP's, all of them officers, were placed
at each corner of the box inside the bomb bay.  'Tim' wasn't the pilot and
neither was Slusher, who was the gunner.  The only member of the regular crew
allowed close to the box was the bombadier, Martucci, who was allowed to check
the security of the load.  Martucci was the one who has declined to be
interviewed, who's old friend was the Fort Worth mortician, and who stated that
to Slusher and 'Tim' that they were now a part of history.  According to Tim,
before the flight, the crew had all heard rumors of the flying disc crash in the
desert and that a spaceship with bodies inside had been found on a ranch in the
area.  Martucci told them on the way back that he knew it was the disc and
remains of the flight crew that they had transported because his friend the
mortician had greeted the plane.

As to the weather, Tim specifically recalled that the day was sunny and hot,
without the usual thunderstorms.  The return flight to Roswell, which was
immediately afterwards, was at the normal 25,000 foot level.

It would have been necessary for the flight from Roswell to Fort Worth to have
occurred at low altitude with guards in the bomb bay because the bay wasn't
pressurized.  Whether there was something biological packed in dry ice isn't
clear from Tim's or Slusher's reports.

>Why would an armed guard be put with corpses packed in ice,
>especially if the cargo was supposed to be secret - how better to underline
>that something special was in the crate? Since the plane was travelling from
>secure airbase to secure airbase, who were they guarding it *from*?

Don't ask me to understand the workings of the military mind.  Why would officer
MPs be used to guard the general's furniture?

In yet another account of what happened, Frank Kaufmann, who claims to have been
directly involved in the recovery of the craft and bodies, states that the
actual flight of bodies took place several days earlier, and the flight
described by Slusher and Tim was merely diversionary.

> If they
>trusted the guards, why didnt they trust the equally-military pilots?

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.  What's the point?  Slusher and 'Tim' weren't
the pilots, in any case. Tim's only relevant comment is that the officer crew
members went to base operations for flight clearance and briefing.  This
included Martucci.   Attempts to check the rest of the crew named by Slusher and
Tim have been made, but the pilot was killed in a crash 2 years after Roswell.
And Martucci won't talk.

>Back
>to the CO2 buildup again - were the guards in the bomb bay with the case?

As noted above, yes.

>Risky, if it did contain a large amount of dry ice...

How so if the bomb bay was ventilated?  If the bodies were prefrozen and
well-insulated in the box, not much dry ice would be needed to maintain them
between packing and transport to Fort Worth.

>And finally, in the
>chill at 4000ft,

What chill?  This was July in the desert on a hot sunny day.  It was probably
90+ degrees in the bomb bay.  4000 ft isn't that high.

>a block of dry ice would be giving off a rather attractive
>cloud of dense vapour. Did the pilots notice and comment on this curling
>round their ankles?

Probably not, since the carbon dioxide vapor is denser than air and sinks rather
than rises.  And the heat probably would have dispersed it very quickly.
Further, if the bomb bay was sealed from the rest of the cabin, what would they
have seen?  [Perhaps someone can comment on whether the bomb bay could be
adequately ventilated without being open to the cabin.]

>[snip]

>>When the plane returned to Roswell (also carrying Major Marcel, who had been
>>incommunicado at Fort Worth for the last day), Slusher and Tim said they were
>>told that the flight carried Gen. Ramey's furniture, and that they were to
>>forget about it.

>It's what they were told *before* the flight that counts.

As noted, only the officers were briefed before the flight. This didn't include
Slusher or Tim.

>Or the reason they
>didnt ask. Pilots as a rule are fussy about what they carry - they have to
>know what maneuvers they can do with this cargo without risking it blowing
>up, or dumping acid on their landing gear or whatever.

We don't have the direct testimony of the officers on board the flight, but we
can probably assume they were told only what they needed to know, such as they
were carrying human cargo in the bomb bay and were to fly at low level.  From
Slusher and Tim's statements, it seems apparent that Martucci (an officer)
wasn't told what was in the crate that he checked.  But between the crash
rumors, the security, and seeing his friend the mortician at Fort Worth,
however, he put 2 and 2 together and assumed the crate contained the alien
bodies.  That's when he made his comments that they had just made history and
that the crate contained crash remains and bodies.  But he didn't have direct
knowledge of this.

>>Other than Tim's flight log, there is no known transport documents for this
>>flight.  Nor are there transport documents for the absolutely known flight of
>>Marcel the previous day from Roswell to Fort Worth in which he brought crash
>>debris, and another flight from Fort Worth to Wright Field carrying the same
>>debris.  Nor are  their transport documents of yet another acknowledged flight
>>from Roswell to Fort Worth to Washington D.C. two days before, also carrying
>>debris.

>How about non-debris flights in the week before and after these events. Are
>we looking at a suspicious selective loss of documentation, or just a
>general loss of  half-a-century-old flight records?

ALL relevant records from this time period seem to be missing.  Not just from
Roswell but from Fort Worth and Wright Field as well.  For example, the GAO
found that the records for the Roswell aviation MP's for 1946 and 1947 were
missing, and the base communications from 1946-1949 were deliberately destroyed.
Both would tell us a tremendous amount about what really happened in July 1947.

>[snip]
>> There isn't even a piece of military documentation on Gen. Ramey's press
>>conference in which he displayed a weather balloon for the press.

>This datum in itself tends to argue against a coverup. Since the press
>reports prove that the conference took place, then all removing the army
>records of the event would do is make it *look* as though a clumsy coverup
>was going on. FOr this one case, at least, it seems mor elikely that the
>documentation, if there was any, has just gone to the file drawer in the sky
>for mundane reasons.

I think the point is not why SOME of the documentation is missing, which might
be understandable, but why is ALL of it missing?